Fuel pump with oil in it
- Thread starter Dougbudd
- Start date
I had mine rebuilt, not that long ago. It's not a certified repair station, but they do a good job. It's called Then & Now Automotive. Phone number is (781) 335-8860, and website is http://www.then-now.com. Before using them, I attempted to get a CRS to do the job, but they wouldn't touch the old AC pumps. I think that is becoming more the rule with these. I don't know if I would trust a rebuild kit or NOS, due to aging. If you use them, they'll send it back with the screws un-tightened on the pump body. They recognize it as an aircraft pump, and feel it relieves them of any liability(I guess.) So, when you get it back, re-tighten the screws. All info I've seen on rebuilding the old AC pumps say that the pump should be in the "actuated" condition, before tightening the screws. Tom Robinson
Let me correct something. The document I reference is a 1945 War Department publication for all models of mechanical fuel pumps. The actual wording is the diaphragm must be held in the "flexed" position, while tightening the screws. Their reason is if this isn't done, the pump pressure will be too high. This is mentioned for every pump in the document, and there are a lot. Tom Robinson
Larry Lowenkron
Member
Tom, is it possible to get a copy of that document, or is it too big?
Larry
Larry
Larry,
I'd be glad to send it. It's about 100 pages. I don't know how to send an email with an attachment through the club's site. If you want, you can Google War Department Manual, TM9-1828A, Fuel Pumps. If you prefer, you can reveal your email and I'll send it. tom Robinson
I'd be glad to send it. It's about 100 pages. I don't know how to send an email with an attachment through the club's site. If you want, you can Google War Department Manual, TM9-1828A, Fuel Pumps. If you prefer, you can reveal your email and I'll send it. tom Robinson
Larry Lowenkron
Member
I googled it, and it worked fine. Thanks for the suggestion!
https://archive.org/details/TechnicalManualTm9-1828aFuelPumps
https://archive.org/details/TechnicalManualTm9-1828aFuelPumps
Got the fuel pump back put it on same thing, wouldn't run unless I used the wobble pump . I noticed the sump was wet so I took it off and the cork gasket was bad letting air suck in it. Replaced the gasket with an o- ring because nobody had a gasket that size now it runs. Still glad I had the fuel pump overhauled very cheep insurance and the turn around was fast
jeffw
New member
The 1/4" - 28 cap screw through the bowl cap - - - I have rebuilt the fuel pump 3 or 4 times in the past 24 years on my franklin 165. this last time in removing it and putting in new parts i stripped the bowl cap threads that receive the cap screw; was able to insert a helicoil and got the threads restored.
Has anyone found a documented, or determined, or can suggest what a torque value would be for that 1/4 -28 bolt? I'm a bit gun shy now that i stripped it once, don't want to do it again. And, does the helicoil take any more torque than the original threads in the aluminum pump body. Getting it tight enough to keep the cap screw washer form leaking is mandatory but how tight is 'too tight'?
And >> 'dougbud' >> you replaced which gasket with o-ring? the gasket under the bowl cap (approx 2.25" diam) or the small washer sized gasket under the cap screw?
And >> I had purchased rebuild kits from 'Antique Parts Cellar', now 'Then-and-Now', last time in 2007 openly informing them I was rebuilding an airplane pump and Tom Hannaford had no problem with that. Contacted them about 9 months age to get another set of parts, he wouldn't have anything to do with selling me parts again for an airplane application. Is anyone finding that having changed recently? or did you claim it was for an old car? if so, what car and engine? or has anyone found another source?
Has anyone found a documented, or determined, or can suggest what a torque value would be for that 1/4 -28 bolt? I'm a bit gun shy now that i stripped it once, don't want to do it again. And, does the helicoil take any more torque than the original threads in the aluminum pump body. Getting it tight enough to keep the cap screw washer form leaking is mandatory but how tight is 'too tight'?
And >> 'dougbud' >> you replaced which gasket with o-ring? the gasket under the bowl cap (approx 2.25" diam) or the small washer sized gasket under the cap screw?
And >> I had purchased rebuild kits from 'Antique Parts Cellar', now 'Then-and-Now', last time in 2007 openly informing them I was rebuilding an airplane pump and Tom Hannaford had no problem with that. Contacted them about 9 months age to get another set of parts, he wouldn't have anything to do with selling me parts again for an airplane application. Is anyone finding that having changed recently? or did you claim it was for an old car? if so, what car and engine? or has anyone found another source?
Larry Lowenkron
Member
Hi Jeff,
You might try to call Emhart Teknologies Customer Service at Tel. (877) 364-2781
or better yet, their Applications Engineering Tel. 203-830-3275. They are the Heli Coil manufacturers. If no luck there, you may just be able to use the torque tables in 43.13. based on the following
http://www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com/sites/www.emhartamericas.com/files/documents/Prevailing%20Torque.pdf
I had the same response when I contacted Then and Now. Should have told him it was for an airboat.
Does anyone know the actual AC part number for Franklin fuel pumps? At least with that, and the reference Tom talked about previously on this post, and the URL I posted, we could get correct parts and rebuild them ourselves.
LL
You might try to call Emhart Teknologies Customer Service at Tel. (877) 364-2781
or better yet, their Applications Engineering Tel. 203-830-3275. They are the Heli Coil manufacturers. If no luck there, you may just be able to use the torque tables in 43.13. based on the following
http://www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com/sites/www.emhartamericas.com/files/documents/Prevailing%20Torque.pdf
I had the same response when I contacted Then and Now. Should have told him it was for an airboat.
Does anyone know the actual AC part number for Franklin fuel pumps? At least with that, and the reference Tom talked about previously on this post, and the URL I posted, we could get correct parts and rebuild them ourselves.
LL
jeffw
New member
Larry, I sent you an email with some info.
The torque values for torquing the pump cap bolt has some other considerations that the torque tables may not be accounting for. 30-40 In/Lb for 1/4 - 28 steel bolt in shear (50-70 for tension) into presumably a steel nut, not to confident this is the same condition for the fuel pump.
It's a steel bolt into a cast aluminum base. The cap has a 2.25" D. - 1/16" thick cork washer at its base and the hard fiber washer under the bolt head at the top of the cap, and the cap itself taking up some compression too. I have looked through the TM for Fuel Pumps and didn't find any guidance there.
I guess you tighten till 'tight enough not to leak'. Trial and error, short of stripping threads.
Check out my direct email.
The torque values for torquing the pump cap bolt has some other considerations that the torque tables may not be accounting for. 30-40 In/Lb for 1/4 - 28 steel bolt in shear (50-70 for tension) into presumably a steel nut, not to confident this is the same condition for the fuel pump.
It's a steel bolt into a cast aluminum base. The cap has a 2.25" D. - 1/16" thick cork washer at its base and the hard fiber washer under the bolt head at the top of the cap, and the cap itself taking up some compression too. I have looked through the TM for Fuel Pumps and didn't find any guidance there.
I guess you tighten till 'tight enough not to leak'. Trial and error, short of stripping threads.
Check out my direct email.
Dan Cullman
New member
OK......I've "had it" about giving out info on this forum about replacement parts and services available for Bellancas and Franklin!
Years ago, buried in long dead posts, I cautioned against mentioning ANYTHING "airplane" in requesting parts and services from nonstandard suppliers.
Now, after many years of successful dealings with Tom Hanniford, someone, somewhere, has pissed him
off or threatened litigation...and he won't do your fuel/wobble pumps. So guys, see if you can find your
"approved shop" with "PMA'd parts to do the overhaul. See if you IA will sign off your rebuild using your will fit parts. Good luck. Spend some time and find any parts! Maybe NAPA or Pep Boys has 'em. Contact the AC division of GM and get the torque value for the cap bolt for the vintage fuel pump in your vintage airplane. Good luck.
The AC and ACM part numbers are published.
I would rather have the non-FAA approved Tom Hanniford who knows more about rebuilding fuel pumps
than any 'approved repair station' do my vintage pumps. Fuel pumps are just the start of this situation...
All the locally sourced replacement parts and services, not available from aviation suppliers, will go away
because of loose lips and threat of lawsuits.
Dan
Years ago, buried in long dead posts, I cautioned against mentioning ANYTHING "airplane" in requesting parts and services from nonstandard suppliers.
Now, after many years of successful dealings with Tom Hanniford, someone, somewhere, has pissed him
off or threatened litigation...and he won't do your fuel/wobble pumps. So guys, see if you can find your
"approved shop" with "PMA'd parts to do the overhaul. See if you IA will sign off your rebuild using your will fit parts. Good luck. Spend some time and find any parts! Maybe NAPA or Pep Boys has 'em. Contact the AC division of GM and get the torque value for the cap bolt for the vintage fuel pump in your vintage airplane. Good luck.
The AC and ACM part numbers are published.
I would rather have the non-FAA approved Tom Hanniford who knows more about rebuilding fuel pumps
than any 'approved repair station' do my vintage pumps. Fuel pumps are just the start of this situation...
All the locally sourced replacement parts and services, not available from aviation suppliers, will go away
because of loose lips and threat of lawsuits.
Dan
Larry Lowenkron
Member
Dan, I talked to Tom more than 10 years ago when I mentioned that I might need to repair my fuel pump. So his refusal to sell parts is not new. Obviously, just don't tell him it's for an airplane. Franklins work well on air boats!
jeffw
New member
Question - "Is there a torque value that anyone can recommend for tightening the fuel pump cap bolt?"
The only response was from someone who actually might have had some good advise, was this ? ? >>
That and the rest of the dressing-down scolding amounted to no help at all. Would have appreciated getting some grown-up, serious, and helpful guidance about tightening the bowl cap bolt. A reminder about not relating the 'AIRPLANE' word would have been palatable and justified. Finding out that I need to be knowledgeable of all of Dan's advise and worldly experiences regarding vintage airplanes before trying to truck through life working on my Cruisair was humbling.
Despite the unique response, I do feel worthy to own and work on my Cruisair (have since 1991, 24 years). In the long run I know i'll get by. The bolt got tightened down, doesn't leak, and the helicoil did its job superbly.
Tom Hannaford helped me a lot and he knew I was doing a rebuild on an airplane pump, in 1995'ish and again in 2007. Talked to him two or three times on the phone and got a two page letter from him relating lots of pump information. 8 months ago - no joy, no more supporting parts for airplanes. Most likely he heard an airplane litigation tale from an attorney type or wanna-be at a cocktail party or his parts community scuttlebutt, doubt seriously that he was threatened with a law suit. There's lots of bad press out there about piper cubs creating havoc in the sky by running into jumbo jets and the like.
just sayin'
The only response was from someone who actually might have had some good advise, was this ? ? >>
Dan Cullman said:
That and the rest of the dressing-down scolding amounted to no help at all. Would have appreciated getting some grown-up, serious, and helpful guidance about tightening the bowl cap bolt. A reminder about not relating the 'AIRPLANE' word would have been palatable and justified. Finding out that I need to be knowledgeable of all of Dan's advise and worldly experiences regarding vintage airplanes before trying to truck through life working on my Cruisair was humbling.
Despite the unique response, I do feel worthy to own and work on my Cruisair (have since 1991, 24 years). In the long run I know i'll get by. The bolt got tightened down, doesn't leak, and the helicoil did its job superbly.
Tom Hannaford helped me a lot and he knew I was doing a rebuild on an airplane pump, in 1995'ish and again in 2007. Talked to him two or three times on the phone and got a two page letter from him relating lots of pump information. 8 months ago - no joy, no more supporting parts for airplanes. Most likely he heard an airplane litigation tale from an attorney type or wanna-be at a cocktail party or his parts community scuttlebutt, doubt seriously that he was threatened with a law suit. There's lots of bad press out there about piper cubs creating havoc in the sky by running into jumbo jets and the like.
just sayin'