Cruisemaster for first airplane

Battles

New member
Forgive me, I'm a bit new to personal aviation. I fly military on a regular basis, but would like to have a personal airplane to go and see the countryside and make a few A-B trips. There is a fellow IP at my base selling a '50 Cruisemaster 190 for $37,500 that has been hangared it's whole life, new leather interior, sports an aux tank, just had an annual in June, and is in overall great shape. Being that I'm on a bit of budget and wanting something that has some speed and legs, at first glance this looks like my ticket. What do you all you veteran Cruisemaster owners think about this deal? Should I just wait and get a C172 or 182 or maybe a Piper Cherokee to get me going, or strike while the iron's hot? The owner seemed to like the plane a lot, but is selling it because he has a new Bonanza. Based on what operating costs are supposed to be, I'm thinking this may be a great opportunity, especially since I'll be promoting soon.

After reading some of the posts, it looks like this plane may be something of a tinkerer. I don't mind getting my hands dirty on occasion, but I'd like to fly more than have to worry about working on my airplane. Of course, I'm also hoping to build a Lancair sometime in the future, so this is not that big a deal so long as she's reliable enough for weekend trips across Texas.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.
 
Future Battles, I think for a first airplane this 190 is not the ticket. You will spend more time working on it than flying it. If that is what you want fine, you got what you asked for. The O-435 is the big drawback. No support and very pricey parts--if you can find them. Ask JB what he spent on his 190, a real education. These ships are not 182 or Cherokee get in and go. They are rare labors of love.Lynn the CRATE :roll:
 
Thanks for the reply. lwford. What is JB's screenname? JB? The owner seems to think it's a very reliable ship, but since I'm very unfamiliar with Bellanca's, I appreciate your feedback. Is there a newer equivalent engine that could be a drop-in replacement for the O-435 should something go terribly wrong with it? The owner told me the mechanics couldn't find a problem with her on the last annual and that she was in great condition. It has 3000 TTAF and 160 SMOH. Just how much of a problem child will she be? 10-20% reliable, maybe 50%? What kind of failures could I expect from her? She's on barnstormers if you want to take a look. It's the one in Del Rio, TX. What about the pricer 14-19-2 in GA that has the 230hp Lycoming. I understand that engine still receives some support.

Thanks again.
 
Future Battles, Jonathan Baron has the 190 Cruisemaster and I have a 230. The 230 has an O-470K Continental engine. The same as a Cessna 180 or 182. TCM gives full support to this OPEC engine ( 14 gal/hr). The 190 has the O-435 Lycoming and this engine is no longer supported by them. Be aware the propeller is standard Hartzell (AD city) the TCM can have a McCauly much desired as they are AD free. If you want to really know the in's and outs of this, contact Robert Sezgo the club president. He can supply you with publications on both of these Cruisemasters. This way you can do your homework and not be biased by opinionated people like myself. I have the time and licenses to support my plane. I spent more money on it than it's worth but like every desireable thing. I got what I wanted---and I payed. Lynn the crate :D
 
There is a 14-19 with a 190 in Flower Mound Tx. (North West Regional) for $10,000 less with a newly overhauled engine and I believe a new prop. A friend owns it and I have flown it, it is a great airplane. I have 9847B one of the last tail wheel models built, I do prefer the Continental engine but for that price fly it until the engines gives problems and put in a Continental. The FAA has told me I can install a Continental if I use factory parts with no problem. Oh yeah you will not find a more forgiving or better flying plane anywhere......Greg
 
I have both and to tell you th etruth I like the power of the cruise master better. My cruise master in very light and just about as responsive as my cruise air. It is really nice to climb out 1500 to 3000 fpm I think down low the cruise speed is only about ten miles per hour different though. Above ten thousand the bigger engine and constant speed prop really makes a difference.....Greg
 
Ask your IP where he got his ATP. If it was in Scottsdale, I flew this plane several years ago. If its the same plane, she flew well and was well taken care off.
Tailwinds
BTW I have a 190 and enjoy her.
 
Wow! Thanks for all the responses. Sounds like I may have a couple options here with the one in Del Rio and the one in Flower Mound. Another IP was looking at this plane as well. So if both airplanes are bought up and flown out of DRT, that would be cool. Formation Bellanca's. I hear trying to get a conventional signoff these days takes some work due to fewer people flying them. I'm going to go look at the Del Rio bird this week. And since I'll be in DFW area this weekend for the Cowboys/49ers game, I just may take a look at the other one too. And I'll ask Rodney where he got his ATP. Thanks again.

If anyone else has some input, please throw in. Jonathan Baron or Pres. Sezgo, your names were mentioned. Please let me know what you think.
 
OK Greg, next you're going to tell me how smooth the OPEC 470 (as Lynn calls them) is compared to the Franklin...'course you can still get cranks and cams for the opec, but still...where is the charm?

Also, I do question if one should really start out with that "special" Hartzell that is on the -19, and then of course there is that O-435 that is such a great, common engine. Actually, Greg, I do wonder - is it easier to get parts for the O-435 then for Franklins? I also wonder about how easy it would be to change and certify an O-470 in a straight 14-19. I know of one done by an FAA employee in SD, but I'd guess you would be put on the bottom of the list out here in the NW...and get it approved sometime after the 787 is certified! BTW, he didn't get the extra 100 pounds GW increase!
Larry
 
The 470 is not nearly as smooth as my 165 but the extra pwoer is great. A friend in Texas is putting a 470 on inplace of a 0435. I dont know about the gross increase. That Flower mound 14-19 has about fourteen to sixteen thousand dollars in the engine alone. Parts may be a little easier to come by for the Brand X engine. Hey you do gain some weight capacity due to the fact the 0435 is heavier that the 470..Greg
 
The original theme of this forum was "Cruisemaster for first airplane." It has branched out to other ideas. Personally, I don't think this is a good idea. You have to want a Bellanca, for what it is and for what it isn't. If you are new to aircraft ownership, I'd recommend something common, like a Cherokee or Cessna 172 - I don't care if you are a new Private Pilot or much more experienced. Ownership will open your eyes to all the pride and pitfalls. It is better with a simple, well known airplane than any model Bellanca. Dan
 
Well, I have to say, I've heard conflicting opinions. The current owner of the Bellanca says it was his first airplane and he loved it. A couple have said it's a bad idea, with another saying it's fine. I guess I'm 2 for 2. I was talking with a friend of mine about the financial commitment and the benefits to owning any airplane, and I've come to the conclusion that owning an airplane is much more about pride than cost effective transportation. I'm going to take a look at the Bellanca on Friday to see what all the buzz is about and to see what everyone in the forum sees in these airplanes. I must say, I'm not a fan of 172's. I prefer low wing airplanes, and for the same money, the Cherokee is slower. Of course this is coming from a young guy who wants to have the ability to just go somewhere, get there with some speed, and has no experience in owning an airplane. I'm sure you all understand that point of view. :D Any other suggestions for a first airplane? I know one guy who just up and built an RV4.
 
Well, my 14-19-2 was my first plane as well. I've hung onto the beast for about 20 years now so I think I'll keep it. A few qualify me as an old fart when I'm not listening now, but I definetely was a young ignorant go-fast type 20 years ago. I know because I tried to justify it by saying it would be a decent x-c plane I could utilize. I tried to say it was practical. Now I'm glad I was so stupid. I eventually figured out I just wanted it, but would never admitt that to anyone, especially my wife. Good Luck!
 
I for one can not understand why anyone would want to buy a a Cherokee or 172 when there are so many interesting airplanes out there to buy unless it is strictly for transportation.

Kevin
 
As I said in my post a few days ago, you have to want a Bellanca for what it is and acknowledge what it isn't. I bought my 14-13 when I was in the Army, back in 1970. It was my second airplane, which I still have - a Cessna 120, which I still have, was the first. I am saying that many first time buyers don't understand that there is little or no factory support for these aircraft. It is not easy to find an A&P who is knowledgeable and willing to help you maintain a Bellanca. This is what forced me to my own certification so I could maintain my 'fleet,' without having to rely on others. Not everyone can do this. This is why I suggested a more common, easily supported airplane to get started. Some, like Glenn, through drive and determination can make a go of Bellanca ownership as a rookie. Dan
 
Duely noted Dan. I appreciate that advice, and actually have some experience in that arena if you will. I bought a 75 Chevy C10 and it really has been interesting keeping it maintained. Of course, there are aftermarket parts for the engine and transmission, but GM only parts like dash items have to be replaced with aftermarket substitutes that aren't always agreeable, and looking in junk yards is a crap shoot. Is that the case with the O435 engine? Although Lycoming doesn't support anymore, are there any aftermarket companies producing compatible parts? I guess that would be a question for JB as Lynn has suggested. I think it's great keeping these classic airplanes flying. Look at the KC-135 for crying out loud. If I flew that beast and the Bellanca, I'd be flying a similar generation aircraft if we just look at year designed and built. In any case, I still plan to take a tour of the Cruisemaster tomorrow. It's not a done deal yet, but if all you guys have seen the new Transformers movie (I know I'm getting hissed at now) :D , the vehicle picks the person just as much as the person picks the vehicle. So, we'll see what happens.

The owner of the Bellanca may not like to read this, but I have to admit though, I was just introduced to Glasairs. Those look like nice, relatively inexpensive planes with a lot of performance if one is willing to put in the effort.

Cheers. :)
 
I'm not ever trying to discourage Bellanca ownership. For the newcomer, keep your eyes open and your wits about you. Even though Lycoming doesn't support the O-435 series, anymore, parts and maintenance are available, if you do some homework. Kinda like keeping a Studebaker going.......and I have one of those! If I got the airplane, I'd get every 435 manual, military and civilian, to reference parts and O/H. Dan
 
Okay, I finally found this topic and I'll do what I can to stay on topic to keep Dean Wormer happy.

I bought a hangar queen and didn't know any better so I paid dearly for that decision as Wormer enjoyed pointing out the other day when he caught me playing on his lawn. Very few mechanics have a clue when it comes to these airplanes...fewer than 100 were ever built. I prefer this model to the later 14-19-2 for several reasons, none of them practical. I wanted a genuine Bellanca, built at the original Bellanca factory in New Castle, Delaware. I like the look of it compared to the -2. It has a longer and more stately nose, the panel reflects an earlier era and is made of metal, the spinner is enormous, the the front of the cowl has a big grin. The example I bought was a particularly good look example, and was featured in Michael Terry's Aviation Legends Calendar in the late '90s. It's as fast or faster than most -2s, it doesn't climb as well but the climb rate is wonderful compared to most certified GA aircraft.

The O-435 is a WWII military surplus engine: 435 cubic inches producing 190 horsepower. It's over-built which is not always a bad thing. The prop is an adjustable pitch rather than a a constant speed propeller. The original hydraulic power pack is impossible to get overhauled. The back-plates for the prop spinner reflect a poor design as they are attached to a hub with raised letters, the aluminum is thin, and all of them have stop drilled cracks. Someone built a batch of better back-plates, along with instructions on how to install them without suffering the original problem, but that was decades ago and, to my knowledge, I got the last one. The same fellow tried to produce replacement spinners of fiberglass but that did not work out. The spinner is massive and requires a sturdy inner structure to hold a phenolic block in place that meets the propeller shaft. The engine is no longer supported though you can get the cylinders overhauled. Mine were done by ECI in San Antonio but they went through at least a dozen before they found six that were suitable, and then applied the Cermi-Nil process they use for their new cylinders after they overhauled them. My mechanic, Joe Sills who also patrols this forum, overhauled my engine and managed to find several important NOS parts including a new camshaft, but I'm certain many of these were the-last-one affairs. The model of the O-435 in the airplane is peculiar to the Bellanca I believe, and has a different accessory case than other models. Put it all together and it comes down to this: you have to love - LOVE - this make and model of Bellancas to put up with their unavoidable difficulties.

Since I've had mine I've needed two prop overhauls - one due to an unavoidable gear-up landing after an annual that went bad. In fairness to the fellow I' poked fun of at the beginning of this post, he was on the phone with the shop that day while I was circling around trying every goddamn thing anyone could think of to get the gear to lower, and he tried his best to come up with something. I'll always appreciate and never forget that. But there was no answer apart from tearing out the passenger seat in rough air in a very responsive airplane and trying to cut the hydraulic lines, so I decided to belly land it. The prop hubs are nearly impossible to find, though I did manage to, the hydraulic system was totally replaced before it worked right again, and required a conversion from the original power pack to the one used on the -2.

Add it all up: complete engine overhaul, replacement of most hydraulic lines, overhauling the actuating cylinders, re-plumbing the venturi powered vacuum system, all sorts of prop problems subsequent to the overhauls due to bad repairs by the shop the copulated with the canine to begin with, bad repairs by earnest mechanics, engine driven fuel pumps and generators that are almost impossible to find, an orphan engine, weak seat rails (though those can still be had) - an immense and long list of things that Judge Murphy slapped me with and....hangar queen or no, this make and model aircraft comes with formidable challenges even if you, unlike me, have a knack with a wrench.

Do I enjoy the airplane now? Heck yeah! Would I swap it for a -2? Hell no! Mine even has the original stainless steel cowl trim, is nearly original overall, and I feel an obligation I cannot explain to keep this aircraft in airworthy condition for the sake of the type, as well as for my enjoyment of flying it. It's not rational to suggest to anyone that they follow my lead, even if that person was someone I didn't like very much.

With the -2 you get the same handling, a better and more efficient engine/prop combination, slightly better useful load, the same high Vne, and - if you find an excellent example - the finest GA aircraft ever created, and the last certificated complex, high performance four place conventional landing gear aircraft ever made. Cruisemasters also have extraordinary short field capability, and those enormous flaps that can be extended up to 46 degrees give you such flexibility over glide slope and descent rate. No certified aircraft has the sheer range between stall speed and top speed as the Cruisemaster has. You can bring it in at 65, and it lands so easily its not fair to call it a taildragger. The tapered wings have two large Sitka spruce spars at the heart of them. Metal is made of compressed crystals that work apart as they flex. Wood does not fatigue, has more flex to it, but will not tolerate being left outside. These aircraft MUST BE HANGARED.

With any Triple Tail Bellanca, as well as with Vikings, speed is quite variable. Most of this has to do with the wings. They are works of exceptional craftsmanship but no two Bellanca wings are the same. These employ the Bellanca B airfoil and it's not a simple one. Thus it all comes down not only to the wings your plane has, but how well the two are matched to each other. This is why some Vikings, let's say, will always be 150kt aircraft whereas others will achieve 160 or more. Don't expect more than 140kts with the Cruisemaster. The better ones cruise in the 160-165mph range.

What helped me endure seven years of on again, off again flying with my 14-19 was the fact that I also own a Luscombe. A Cruisemaster as a first airplane with a high dispatch rate? I love them but I think not.

I doubt you'd go wrong if you chose a 182 for the mission you have in mind RIGHT NOW. It won't be the sensual flying machine a Bellanca is, but it will be a flying machine. :)

Jonathan
 
JB's last post said it well. The O435A as supplied, was the original power for the 14-19 and had it's origins with the military O435, used in the Stinson L5 during WW2 and Korea. There are quite a few differences in the military engines and the commercial 'A' model. There is also some interchange of parts. That is why I say to get both the military and civilian parts manuals, for reference. As far as I can determine, the only use for the 'A' model, in production aircraft in the USA was the Bellanca 14-19 and the Johnson Rocket. So, go figure. How many of these engines are floating around as spares? Owners of O435A and Franklins must be into Studebakers for ground transportation! Dean Wormer
 
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