donnymason
New member
owned my super viking for two years. believe origional paint for the 68 model. cracking bad. anyone have any safe method to remove the old paint. I believe the paint to be imron.
new member mason
new member mason
viking 17-30 paint
- Thread starter donnymason
- Start date
Larry Lowenkron
Member
I have taken Imron off to repair. It is NOT fun, just a LOT of sanding with 320. I have never taken it off a really large area(> 1 ft2) but imagine it can be done with a lot of patience and care. I have had Imron on my plane since 1986, and it still looks good, so I guess I am not totally opposed. Though if I was to recover a plane, I wouldn't use it. It is heavy!
I haven't done this myself, but I hear that using an iron to heat & immediately getting under the imron with a scraper will remove large sheets of it. A 1968 Bellanca would have only dope. To be sure take a bit of MEK to an inconspicuous area; if the paint comes off it's not imron.
jeff
jeff
Jonathan Baron
New member
To echo Larry's comments. Imron is one lard-a** paint. I was looking at the logs of my 14-19. After the airplane was painted with Imron, empty weight went from 1650 to 1776. The wings also received the microballoon treatment at that time. The balloons themselves are nearly weightless. It comes down to how much epoxy was used.
My airplane looks great and I've had to deal with so many other problems that removing the paint or recovering is way, WAY down on my list. I rarely carry much, and frankly I'd like to carry myself in it for a long, long time before I even THINK of other improvements. Besides, the ceconite cover goes back to 1969. A time for recover will come eventually, and that's the proper time to put my 'Master on a weight loss program. Apart from cracking along the horizontal stabilizer on the trim tab side (that tab requires frequent checks and rework, both for AD reasons, and due to loose tabs creating documented cases of flutter) I'm not surprised.
In short, it would less expensive and better all around if I simply lost some weight. I remain astonished at the extraordinary aircraft weight saving measures performed by pilots resembling the Stay Puff Marshmallow Man...a little reference to Ghost Busters.
Jonathan
My airplane looks great and I've had to deal with so many other problems that removing the paint or recovering is way, WAY down on my list. I rarely carry much, and frankly I'd like to carry myself in it for a long, long time before I even THINK of other improvements. Besides, the ceconite cover goes back to 1969. A time for recover will come eventually, and that's the proper time to put my 'Master on a weight loss program. Apart from cracking along the horizontal stabilizer on the trim tab side (that tab requires frequent checks and rework, both for AD reasons, and due to loose tabs creating documented cases of flutter) I'm not surprised.
In short, it would less expensive and better all around if I simply lost some weight. I remain astonished at the extraordinary aircraft weight saving measures performed by pilots resembling the Stay Puff Marshmallow Man...a little reference to Ghost Busters.
Jonathan
donnymason
New member
thanks fella's, will check with mek in the hope that it is not imron.
dan
dan
Alain1
New member
Jonathan and others, the following is just good to know. :wink:
The Imron you've had, if it is the trade mark from Dupont because there is no other Imron. But there is similar, is a polyurethane-enamel. not epoxy. My dad was rep and working with chemist at Dupont...
should weight about 8 lbs per gallon. Let say 10 to make things easy.
It will take a max of 5 gallons for a Bellanca, I used 5 on C-185
(As I maybe mentionned before, I had an aircraft painting business in the pass, I've painted from 150s, champion, citabrias, Bakeng Deuce, chopper, to Twins, and went back to old employer, Air Canada, as painter, and I've painted from DASH-8 to 747-400., DC-8, DC-9, Name it.)
You have maybe 6 gals of paint on your bird if the painter missed his shot and had to re-do a section.
So 6 gals X 10 pound = 60 lbs, less solvent evaporation and drying which is ball park, 25% less weight with this product when a gallon is dry. This is 15 lbs less so you should have about 35-40 lbs more. not 125. or maybe from original condition, it's been done 2 or 3 times. Well weight after paint is just one of those that is hard to figure, where exactly the weight is coming from???
Could be lots of primer-filler under the Imron to fill the microballoon pores/texture. Then the sanding will remove a layer. But the primer filler has it's weight. Way more then the paint has there is solid in there to fill.
What most of us want on their crafts is shine because it 's better for speed and cleaning right? and it looks bettr! But the fabric texture you can see thru dope will not kill that much speed. It will be easier to maintain/clean a shinier surface when done with polyurethane, that and weight is all you gain. :roll:
There is some polyurethane on the market that are more flexible than Imron and will last longer. Some of them you can add flex agent as well. And it fill a bit more than Imron. We tested a bunch. Don't forget, any repair with poly, you'll have to do the whole panel. You cannot blend it like dope.
Don't try to fill with paint. Prepare your fabric well and fill it with the fabric manufacturer's recommended product. when it is nice and smooth, then apply the paint. It will be lighter this way.
Some guys might use automotive products to fill and it might give you a great finish and save you a few buck in short terms, but it was not developed for fabric and aviation. It is heavy. and crack with time. I've seen them all. On metal it's ok except for weight but the stretch and retract coeficient of fabric is too great compare to other surfaces. The paint just can't follow if not developed for that purpose.
But again, a well done Imron, with not too much filler to make it heavy and crack will last you quite a long time if taken care of and not poking your airplane all over the flexible fabric on the fuselage. It will last even longer on hard surfaces like the wings.
Alain.
The Imron you've had, if it is the trade mark from Dupont because there is no other Imron. But there is similar, is a polyurethane-enamel. not epoxy. My dad was rep and working with chemist at Dupont...
should weight about 8 lbs per gallon. Let say 10 to make things easy.
It will take a max of 5 gallons for a Bellanca, I used 5 on C-185
(As I maybe mentionned before, I had an aircraft painting business in the pass, I've painted from 150s, champion, citabrias, Bakeng Deuce, chopper, to Twins, and went back to old employer, Air Canada, as painter, and I've painted from DASH-8 to 747-400., DC-8, DC-9, Name it.)
You have maybe 6 gals of paint on your bird if the painter missed his shot and had to re-do a section.
So 6 gals X 10 pound = 60 lbs, less solvent evaporation and drying which is ball park, 25% less weight with this product when a gallon is dry. This is 15 lbs less so you should have about 35-40 lbs more. not 125. or maybe from original condition, it's been done 2 or 3 times. Well weight after paint is just one of those that is hard to figure, where exactly the weight is coming from???
Could be lots of primer-filler under the Imron to fill the microballoon pores/texture. Then the sanding will remove a layer. But the primer filler has it's weight. Way more then the paint has there is solid in there to fill.
What most of us want on their crafts is shine because it 's better for speed and cleaning right? and it looks bettr! But the fabric texture you can see thru dope will not kill that much speed. It will be easier to maintain/clean a shinier surface when done with polyurethane, that and weight is all you gain. :roll:
There is some polyurethane on the market that are more flexible than Imron and will last longer. Some of them you can add flex agent as well. And it fill a bit more than Imron. We tested a bunch. Don't forget, any repair with poly, you'll have to do the whole panel. You cannot blend it like dope.
Don't try to fill with paint. Prepare your fabric well and fill it with the fabric manufacturer's recommended product. when it is nice and smooth, then apply the paint. It will be lighter this way.
Some guys might use automotive products to fill and it might give you a great finish and save you a few buck in short terms, but it was not developed for fabric and aviation. It is heavy. and crack with time. I've seen them all. On metal it's ok except for weight but the stretch and retract coeficient of fabric is too great compare to other surfaces. The paint just can't follow if not developed for that purpose.
But again, a well done Imron, with not too much filler to make it heavy and crack will last you quite a long time if taken care of and not poking your airplane all over the flexible fabric on the fuselage. It will last even longer on hard surfaces like the wings.
Alain.
Jonathan Baron
New member
Wow!
Thanks for the detailed analysis, Alain
I've looked for a simple reason why my Bellanca gained so much weight over such a short period of time...according to the logs. Then again so many of the documented pre-paint changes were calculated. Stuff like the Brittain wing leveler sorta like appeared. I had the airplane weighed and all manner of things probably went into the bloat, alas.
Jonathan
Thanks for the detailed analysis, Alain
I've looked for a simple reason why my Bellanca gained so much weight over such a short period of time...according to the logs. Then again so many of the documented pre-paint changes were calculated. Stuff like the Brittain wing leveler sorta like appeared. I had the airplane weighed and all manner of things probably went into the bloat, alas.
Jonathan
Larry Lowenkron
Member
Boy I want to second what Jonathan wrote. Thanks Alain. That is exactly the kind of info we need!
I always thought my fat ol' plane just gained wt. from the paint. It makes more sense now from what you wrote that it is typical of so many things that as they get older, they get heavier! Sort of like me! I got my plane with the present paint job, and made the apparently erroneous assumption after I first weighed it that it was due to the paint. Hmmm, if I just looked at all the mods, it would be obvious. I just liked them all too much to think "evil" (heavy) of them. Probably the new interior didn't help either...though it sure looks better than the Herculon (for those of you who can remember the 60's) couch like fabric that was in there before.
Larry
I always thought my fat ol' plane just gained wt. from the paint. It makes more sense now from what you wrote that it is typical of so many things that as they get older, they get heavier! Sort of like me! I got my plane with the present paint job, and made the apparently erroneous assumption after I first weighed it that it was due to the paint. Hmmm, if I just looked at all the mods, it would be obvious. I just liked them all too much to think "evil" (heavy) of them. Probably the new interior didn't help either...though it sure looks better than the Herculon (for those of you who can remember the 60's) couch like fabric that was in there before.
Larry
Alain1
New member
Hey Larry, talking about interiors, What you guys have under your seat cushion?
I have a plywood and my head is in the head liner...A friend who just bought a Cruisair in Florida and brought it near my place has a kind of canvass bottom under the cushion. He sits lower a bit. I guess I will have to look into his set up and modify mine. But is this original??? Is there a drawing for that?
Alain
I have a plywood and my head is in the head liner...A friend who just bought a Cruisair in Florida and brought it near my place has a kind of canvass bottom under the cushion. He sits lower a bit. I guess I will have to look into his set up and modify mine. But is this original??? Is there a drawing for that?
Alain
Larry Lowenkron
Member
Hi Alain
My front seats have plywood bottoms. Since I am so massively tall (Today I measured 5'- 7 1/2" at the docs - shrinking as I get older!) I previously increased the thickness of the seat bottoms. My front seats are cushioned with Confor Foam (from 3M??). They fit me just right. Rear seats have regular open/close cell foam.
I have always maintained that Bellanca designed these planes for people his size. Looking at old pictures, I think he was even shorter than me!
I did an Angle Flight with a guy who had to weigh over 250, and he was over 6'4". Actually had to have him "assume a position" for TO and LNDG to make sure he cleared the controls. What totally blew me away was that he actually slept for more than half the trip!
Larry
My front seats have plywood bottoms. Since I am so massively tall (Today I measured 5'- 7 1/2" at the docs - shrinking as I get older!) I previously increased the thickness of the seat bottoms. My front seats are cushioned with Confor Foam (from 3M??). They fit me just right. Rear seats have regular open/close cell foam.
I have always maintained that Bellanca designed these planes for people his size. Looking at old pictures, I think he was even shorter than me!
I did an Angle Flight with a guy who had to weigh over 250, and he was over 6'4". Actually had to have him "assume a position" for TO and LNDG to make sure he cleared the controls. What totally blew me away was that he actually slept for more than half the trip!
Larry
I haven't taken my seat bottoms apart yet (cruisemaster) but they feel like ironwood. It is a heavy square of wood that is built up and feels heavy. I will do an interior next year and tell you what I find. Whatever it is, I will drill lightening holes in it or something. The seats are half the weight of the plane. Peter
Alain1
New member
Thanks guys
Whatch tose lighting hole Peter! you don't want to weaken the structure of you seat and pass thru it when you'll do a 2G turn :lol:
I think I will have to go with canvas
I am 6'3" but not 250, no way!!!
I took the back about 2 inch aft. redone the frame so I could fit comfortably. With the canvas, It will be super. Just lowering me an inch or 2 will be great. Will have to be careful not to have those landing gear chains grinding my bottom when retracting :lol:
Alain.
Whatch tose lighting hole Peter! you don't want to weaken the structure of you seat and pass thru it when you'll do a 2G turn :lol:
I think I will have to go with canvas
I am 6'3" but not 250, no way!!!
I took the back about 2 inch aft. redone the frame so I could fit comfortably. With the canvas, It will be super. Just lowering me an inch or 2 will be great. Will have to be careful not to have those landing gear chains grinding my bottom when retracting :lol:
Alain.
cruiseair74372
Member
The 14-13 and 14-13-2 came wiyh a sling seat from the factory. I moved my seat back 2" and then I had a problem with the rear carry-through spar hitting me at the base of the back. I removed the sling and installed plywood. I am only 5"10" but am also wide. :lol: :lol:
Alain1
New member
I remember, On my Bakeng Deuce, I had the chance to find a sheet of honey comb fiber glass from an airliner floor. Or maybe it was a modern train ceiling, what ever, the piece finished its career carrying bums as a seat., Was it ever light and solid!!!
I still have a good piece, matbe I should have a look at that.
I still have a good piece, matbe I should have a look at that.